Yes, I've seen the assertions about rumors, etc. (2024)

15 Comments

1. summorumpontificum777 says:

   18 June 2024 at 8:19 AM

   Father’s 6 points are excellent, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will intervene so that the rumors do not become reality. And yet I keep thinking of a line from a 1980s German pop song, “This is it, boys. This is war.” The premise of that Teutonic ditty was a series of mistakes about some balloons accidentally triggering a nuclear showdown. But the war on the TLM is no mistake. It’s quite intentional, and it’s one of the most diabolical things to ever happen in the Church. Let’s face it. Traditionis Custodes largely failed. Yes, they succeeded in shutting down a few masses here or there, but the goal of turning young people away from the TLM backfired spectacularly. How many thousands of pilgrims showed up for the Chartres pilgrimage? How many of our TLMs are *more crowded* than they were 4 years ago? How many *millions* watched Harrison Butker’s speech in which he talked about the TLM’s positive effect on his life? A handful of spoiled little boys residing on the banks of the Tiber are prepared to go full Billy Mumy and wish us all into the cornfield once and for good? Are they really so stupid and evil as to try to triple down on a failed project? Sadly, in our hearts, I think we all know the answer to the last question.

2. Danteewoo says:

   18 June 2024 at 9:24 AM

   The local FSSP made it inescapably easy to leave their parish, and I think that Francis is an antipope, so the Ukrainian Catholic parish a half mile away is a providential blessing.

   And recall, Paul VI did worse to the Old Mass than Francis has yet done, and he has been canonized (whatever that means anymore.) What Casey Stengel said about his NY Mets in 1961, “Can’t anybody here play this game?” applies to the Church lately.

3. phlogiston says:

   18 June 2024 at 9:42 AM

   “Are they really so stupid and evil as to try to triple down on a failed project?” Well, concupiscence DOES darken the intellect, so…yeah, we do likely know the answer to that.

4. Thomas says:

   18 June 2024 at 11:06 AM

   As the (slightly modified) saying goes, “What doesn’t kill it, makes it stronger.”

5. Ave Maria says:

   18 June 2024 at 11:32 AM

   With all the different Rites in the Church such as Byzantine, Maronite and so forth, why is it only the Traditional Latin Rite is the one hated, persecuted, and shut down?

6. Lurker 59 says:

   18 June 2024 at 11:59 AM

   ~Ave Maria

   Just as the people in the pews are largely ignorant of the Eastern Churches and their Rites, so too the bishops. This ignorance is one of the reasons why the Eastern Churches sided with French/German-Latin American axis at Vatican II and scrapped the prepared schema. Further, if the bishops don’t understand the Roman Rite (which is properly TLM, TC notwithstanding) they will not understand the Eastern Rites, find them an oddity, a curiosity, and mostly leave them alone.

   This doesn’t mean that the modern Vatican hasn’t been messing with the Eastern Rites and introducing modernisms — they have, we Romans are just not paying attention.

7. Athelstane says:

   18 June 2024 at 12:20 PM

   With all the different Rites in the Church such as Byzantine, Maronite and so forth, why is it only the Traditional Latin Rite is the one hated, persecuted, and shut down?

   Don’t kid yourself. Grillo has made it pretty clear that he believes that the Eastern Rites must be “reformed,” too.

   That argument just has not won the day in Rome. Yet.

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8. Gladiator says:

   18 June 2024 at 12:27 PM

   My feelings on this situation.

   They want to get this done before Francis dies because “that will make it permanent.” Who are they fooling! They can’t play God. Soon enough, Francis will be gone and the new pope, or the one after him will decimate everything he has done, kind of like he’s done to the legacy of both John Paul II and Benedict XVI.
   .
   These fools will soon be rotting in the ground and facing the wrath of He Who is head of the Church for the destruction they have caused countless souls. I fear how many are going to hell because of the confusion and decisive destruction of morals and faith.
   .
   God have mercy on them, for they KNOW what they are doing.

9. Imrahil says:

   18 June 2024 at 12:53 PM

   Dear Danteewoo,

   I think that Francis is an antipope

   In which case you had better correct your opinion first, and then let’s worry about the rest.

   Among other things, ask yourself the question: What sort of thing is it that Pope Francis has done that it is technically ruled out that a pope is ever able to do?

   Not: “He ought not to do this.” Not “he commits a mortal sin by doing this”. Not “all those things the Pope really should not be doing, summing themselves up, are just to much taken together and we can’t take it any longer”. All these are simply immaterial to the question you tried to answer. What particular thing that Popes can absolutely never do has Pope Francis done?

   I can think of only one thing, defining an untruth as a dogma, and he hasn’t. Some say that publicly denying a clear dogma would count if the things are 100% clear for all to see without possible misunderstanding (others contradict them with good reasons), but in any case he hasn’t done so either.

   (It is, granted, the obvious meaning of Scripture that capital punishment is not in all circ*mstances unacceptable; but no Council or Pope has ever anathemized those who dare to teach the contrary, and we have rightly been warned against drawing conclusions with the certainty needed for this momentous question, based solely upon the fact that someone perceives something to be the obvious meaning of Scripture. So, really wrong but even that is no heresy. And whatever about heresy, certainly everything below it any sin and wrong decision can be possibly be commited by Popes.)

10. Imrahil says:

    18 June 2024 at 2:05 PM

    Besides,

    the credible rumors (read Rorate) seem to be talking about people who would very much like the Pope to do such a thing. To be honest, it is not news to any of us that such people exist. In what sense are plans by curial subaltern-officers “plans” at all?

11. TheCavalierHatherly says:

    18 June 2024 at 2:46 PM

    “6. Ask yourself if you really care.”

    I’ve got a family and a house to take care of… unlike these high ranking curates who seem to be bored and to have nothing to do with all their free time.

    If only there was something they were supposed to actually be doing…

12. Lurker 59 says:

    18 June 2024 at 6:19 PM

    ~Imrahil

    —>Among other things, ask yourself the question: What sort of thing is it that Pope Francis has done that it is technically ruled out that a pope is ever able to do?

    That is not how being an antipope works. Someone is an antipope if they, being invalidly elected, act and function as if they were the pope with validly elected bishops going along with them necessarily causing a fissure in the Body of Christ. It is not a question of being heretical.

    That is also not how infallibility (which is what I think you are going for) works either. Infallibility isn’t some magical ward on the fisherman’s ring that prevents the wearing from “defining an untruth as a dogma” as if he would be invisibly physically restrained or burst into flames should he touch pen to the signature line on a heretical document or some magical seal on the ring that makes a document infallible, but only when it is super official and using extra precise language.

    It just means that when the Pope teaches in concert with the deposit of the faith that comes from her Head, by virtue of his office, that teaching is infallible. When the Pope doesn’t teach in concert with that which comes from the Head, then the teaching isn’t infallible. The Pope cannot define new doctrine that is not in concert with the deposit of the faith, because that act would be fallible and thus not doctrine and thus could be legitimately resisted independently of whether it was an abuse of authority.

    As I have mentioned previously, there are many heresies in the documents issued by this papacy. There are also many that have yet to be formally defined. The Church isn’t legalistic — what is heresy isn’t heresy simply because it has been so defined and what is not heresy is not heresy because it has not been defined as such. Now we can talk about heresy in the legal sense, and then yes because there exists no human authority that can sit in legal judgement of a living pope, we refrain from saying that a pope can be a heretic — in the legal sense.

    But it is pretty plan on the face of it that using official documents and the authoritative weight of the papacy to push changes in liturgy, dogma, doctrine, and praxis that are not just detrimental but antithetical to the sanctification and salvation of souls is heresy of the worst type. When you sit around and say/suggest that grace cannot/does not liberate an individual from their bondage to sin and man has no obligation to live the moral life to be saved… well if people follow that, they won’t see heaven.

    (Also, no, it is the reverse in scripture. Capital punishment is the normative and just result of certain moral transgressions. There are certain circ*mstances that would prevent the “just judge” from refraining from justly applying capital punishment. Keep in mind that Christ upheld both His sentence and the two thieves’ sentence. (The unjustness in Christ’s sentence is that He was innocent and Pilot knew it, not that capital punishment itself is unjust.) Keep in mind that not a few weeks later Ananias and Sapphira received the sentence of death for blaspheming against the name of God. Capital punishment, as presented by scripture, is the norm, always acceptable, but there are exceptions that can (and should) be made.)

13. pcg says:

    18 June 2024 at 7:50 PM

    I am a student of Tudor England. The Catholics, post Henry, Edward and Elizabeth sacrificed their lives and livelihoods for the Mass- some heroic Jesuits too! Are we being summoned to do the same? Will we?

14. Senor Quixana says:

    19 June 2024 at 6:55 AM

    -peg

    Calm down, dear. It is not nearly as bad as all that. The church has not caused anyone to be burned at the stake for a few centuries now and the hierarchy seems to have lost its taste for such things. No dreams of martyrdom for the holy cause of the TLM are going to be fulfilled anytime soon. We have the Mass and all of the other sacraments as we have had since the time of the apostles. The means of administering those sacraments have changed over the ages and it can be argued that the current way of things lacks a certain sense of awe and dignity, but there is no evidence whatsoever that this has caused the Lord to change His policy about making His graces available to His faithful. My sense is that He is as keen now to give us those graces now as He was in apostolic times and even the 1950s. It is possible He shares your distaste for the aesthetics of the administration, but nothing we know of Him, should cause us to believe that that is going to stop Him.

    On a more mundane note, the problem in Tudor Britain was with the government, not the parts of the church that remained in communion with Rome. The likes of Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlieb in Congress should give us a bit of pause about our safety from the government and mobs of Nazi wannabes on our campuses and rabble in our streets may make martyrs of some of us. Prelates demanding the sacrifice of lives for devotion to the TLM, not really a concern.

15. JonPatrick says:

    19 June 2024 at 7:13 AM

    @lurker59 says “But it is pretty plan on the face of it that using official documents and the authoritative weight of the papacy to push changes in liturgy, dogma, doctrine, and praxis that are not just detrimental but antithetical to the sanctification and salvation of souls is heresy of the worst type”

    Well technically I don’t think this fits the definition of heresy as it doesn’t formally deny some teaching of the Church. Can’t we just say we have bad leadership in the Vatican and leave it at that? I don’t think this “Pope is a heretic” stuff advances the cause and just gives the other side ammunition in their case that Trad Catholics are disobedient.